Primary chain lubrication.

[colinmnorfolk]

Having fitted new clutch plates to my Arrow and topping up the chain case with 20 grade oil I then suffered from clutch slip. I dismantled it and reset the plates and tried again with the same result, and of course a slipping clutch hinders kick starting.
So a session on Google confirmed all sorts of alternative lubricants were advised, and tried, from A.T.F. to lighter and thicker oils. In the end I settled for draining the chain case and spraying the chain with chain lube .... and so far it has worked !

My question is, has anyone else had this problem ? I realise I am "slightly" heavier than I was when I rode my first Arrow in the Sixties but I wonder if the modern clutch linings are up to the job.
I unscrew the inspection cap and spray the chain frequently and the chain looks to be in good condition and I have not found any undue stretching although I do worry about the tensioner running too dry. I would appreciate any feedback from Arrow and Leader riders.

Colin M. Norfolk

[Roger James]

Hello Colin,
I would have thought that grade of oil would have been o.k. strange that the clutch appears to work ok when oil has been drained out though.
What comes to mind is the following - After fitting the new clutch plates did you adjust the clutch to compensate for the change in thickness of the cork linings, I don't mean by the adjuster on the cable but the adjuster inside the gearbox outer cover, to give the correct clearance, it could be the adjuster is putting pressure on the rod that runs through the centre of the mainshaft and connects with centre of the clutch outer cover and its stopping the plates from settling fully home and slipping even though you've let the lever out at the handlebar.

Another possibility is that you have ended up with clutch plates that have been re-lined with cork that is slightly too thick, there are some still in circulation that will catch out the unwary.

Roger

[bh.sprint]

Hello,

I use 20 grade oil in the primary chaincase and it works OK, even with a load of camping gear on the Leader.

As Roger suggests , check the adjustment. It is possible to adjust the pressure of the clutch by mean of the washers in the spring cup assembly. See diagram in manual.
I find with the newer clutch linings, the full circle ones that clutch drag is the problem, so have to adjust the clutch so there is very little free play to get clean gear changes.
The linings from Villiers Services cure this problem but they are a bit thicker so have to be used with 1 or two original plates/linings.

Brian.H.

[colinmnorfolk]

Many thanks for your comments Roger and Brian,
I must now come clean ! My Arrow was bought as an abandoned project but it came with a rebuilt engine, new loom, wheels, tyres, seat, repaint, etc, etc. But...it needed fettling, electrics connecting correctly, tank cleaning and various other odds and sods. After all of this it started. Apart from having to sort a seized gear selector it ran well and I put quite a few miles on it on the local B Roads until I ran through a section of flooded road near a pig farm entrance. The clutch started slipping soon after and when I removed the chain case I found foul smelling water had gained access and the clutch plates had shed some of their (original ?) cork inserts.
No problem, I thought, Draganfly are not far away, so a new set of bonded lining plates was obtained, and off we went. I took particular care to ensure the adjustments were correct at the lever and actuating arm and refilled with the correct amount of 20 grade.
Then my problems started ! Clutch slip after a few miles so another dismantle and I thought I might have overtightened and deflected the new plates (they seemed rather flimsy). However the linings seemed intact so off I went again and after a few miles, clutch slip again, hence my experimenting with various grades of lubricant, all to no avail until I drained the case and tried chain lube,
On reflection, did "over tightening" and distortion cause the original problem, are these modern bonded plates not up to the job, have the plates become saturated with oil ??? Therefore I thought I would ask Forum members for their opinions before I invest in another set of new plates ! Has anyone else had problems with modern linings or plates ?
Best Regards.

[Roger James]

Morning Colin,
I'm baffled as to how riding through a flooded section of road could have resulted in water entering the primary chaincase as its a sealed environment barring either of the two seals breaking down that would have allowed oil to leak out that you would have been aware of.
(well its not totally sealed as there's an air vent tube on top but presume you didnt actually submerge the engine to that depth for water to be drawn in through the tube).
If you've got new cork lined plates fitted and you are happy with the adjustment another possible cause of clutch slip could be the three pressure springs are tired allowing clutch slip. When I rebuild an engine I always place the springs on a level surface and at least see that they are all the same length, they do vary quite a bit and if different lengths fitted could affect the manner in which the end cover lifts off and settles back down at an angle and not evenly causing clutch drag or slipping initially until it settles down fully.
A couple of years ago I purchased a few new clutch springs from the Clubs 2 Stroke spares organiser, John might still have some left in stock as he had a few boxes of them. (but I still check the length of the springs before fitting).
Don't worry about having overtightened the three clutch spring pressure bolts as they would have snapped off if you had applied too much.
Regarding oil on the clutch plates themselves, they are running in oil so they are going to get saturated to some degree but the clutch should still work o.k. and not slip because of the oil unless an oil has been used that the cork cannot cope with and allows slipping. Before fitting new clutch plates the manual advises you soak them in oil before fitting.
One other thing to check when the clutch is apart, the two steel plates that fit between the cork plates, put them on a flat surface to make sure they are not distorted, if it can be rocked then its distorted and best to fit a replacement.
I cannot comment further on new cork linings from personal experience as I've not needed to fit any to date making do with a few new old stock plates and getting the max use out of old plates as long as I'm happy they are in good condition and have some life left in them.
Roger

[Graham.Goral]

Hi Colin,
Just picking up on the phrase you used twice "after a few miles, clutch slip again"... When you put in new corks then there can be a bedding-in period where the cork compresses a bit under spring pressure and any high spots wear off - resulting in you needing to back-off your clutch actuating lever adjuster a little to restore the free play to compensate for the fact that your friction plates have become slightly thinner. Have you re-checked for free play in the clutch pushrod when this slipping re-occurs?
Cheers
Graham

[colinmnorfolk]

Hi Everybody and many thanks for your contributions,
The old plates had cork segments but the replacement Draganfly ones are fully bonded friction material. I think the water got in via the gap between the 2 chaincases, it was that high ! There was definitely a lot of water in the primary chaincase and some of the cork segments were dislodged. Interestingly the engine continued to run, although as we know, there is drain hole at the bottom of the points cover.
As Roger states it is recommended that new plates be soaked in oil before installation so perhaps it is only my paranoia that made me suspect oil is the problem. Moving on to the springs, I think that is a very good point as they could be the originals as per the cork plates.
I'm satisfied with the adjustments at both ends of the cable as I learnt long ago that correct free play is essential.
I'm reassured that I should not have been able to overtighten the pressure plate bolts. When the slipping began after fitting the new plates I tried tightening the bolts further and then found the innnermost friction plate was "dished" when I dismantled it all again. I straightened it as best I could and all seemed to run true when I spun it via the kickstart. It made me wonder if the replacement plates are more fragile than the originals but as they are "exchanged", presumably they are recycled ?
Finally, I went on a 35 mile run over the weekend with no clutch slip even though I wound it up a few times ! This is of course with no oil in the chaincase, just a douse of chainlube before I set off.
So I think the course of action now is to continue as I am, keeping a check on chain tension etc, and if and if a problem arises I will strip it all down again and try new plates with new springs, taking extra care on assembly and hopefully be able to add 20 grade oil as specified.

[keith.hodgenia]

Just a thought, is it possible to put too much oil in the chaincases on an arrow or leader?

[Knud.Degnbol]

As I know, cork has better friction than bonded material. Perhaps the problem will be solved if you change back to cork or buy stronger springs.

[colinmnorfolk]

Anybody know where I can obtain cork lined plates ? I'll Google Villiers Linings, as Brian suggests.
So, I have some real pointers if the problem persists.....check the springs are not knackered, change to cork friction plates, check the steel plates are flat and double check the adjustments.
As I have said previously this is my 4th Arrow and I have never had this problem before, I am determined to solve this and will keep you all updated.

Many thanks again for all your advice.