Fixing Steib to rigid Ariel

[Keith.owen]

Hi there!!
Years ago I had a 'chair' fixed to my 1950 VH. It was mounted on an "A" frame chassis which had two swan necks one at the front fixing to the attachment below the headstock and the other at the rear to that below the saddle. It fixed directly to a ball joint threaded into the rear of the frame and had an arm fixing to the front engine plate. With the exception of the ball joint the remaining attachments were made to fixings that passed through the appropriate lugs in the frame. This all went missing.

In 1985 I bought a Steib S35 as a restoration project. I am a bit perplexed as to exactly how to fix it to my Ariel. I noticed in the latest Cheval that two of the members in the Cornish branch have Steibs so the question is 'could some kind soul send me photos of how the side car is attached to their machine (particularly if it is rigid, but I guess the priciple is the same for other frame types)?

I have looked at the catalogues (a kind member from the German branch pointed me in the correct direction here) but remain, is the word, confused?

As usual, any help os appreciated.

Keith

[brenton.roy]

Hi Keith, there are four basic fixings. As you say, one at the front, under the tank, one at the front between the engine plates (with a solid spacer), one below the seat and one just forward of the rear axle. There need to be two basic adjustments. One, the camber of the bike - how it leans relative to the sidecar and the toe in / out of the sidecar wheel. Usually, the centre, under the seat adjustment does the camber and the front lower adjustment does toe in and out. No doubt someone will have the exact measurements for this.
Steib's are interesting because of the bar mounting, but the basic stuff is the same. I have borrowed this photo which shows the clamping arrangement to the sidecar frame bar, which allows the fixed arms to be adjusted for toe and camber. The link is http://www.deejay51.com/a_r_e__classic_bikes.htm there's a photo of a Steib and Huntmaster there also.
A ball joint at the rear is nice touch, but not always there. It can sometimes just be a pivot point as it only allows for the movement caused by adjusting at these two main points.
I hope this can get you started. Others will know heaps more.
BTW - The first go with a sidecar is always the best. Make sure someone has a camera!

[admin]

I am fitting a watsonian chassis (velorex 562 body) to a 1954 VH500 at this very moment.
It was handy that the chassis came with a set of fittings, to an ariel rigid, and I only needed a couple of eyebolts and the one that goes through the loop, under the tank.
My mate just did a chair and it was costly in various struts/joints from watsonian (it appears they have such things).

I can take a picture, if you like, as the chassis has no body on it and so it's pretty clear where everything (that brenton describes above) goes.

[Keith.owen]

Hi John and Roy,

What has me intrigued is how one attaches to the Sreib chassis in a way that stops it rotating towards or away from the bike.

When I had the 'A' chassis attched to my bike the swan necks provided this stability because they went across under the chair and fixed at a pint in the middel of the chassis (apex of the A at the fornt, middel of the chssis at rear).

The Steib is basicall a 'U' shape and whereas this may be attached to the lower fixing I surmise that it is necessary to take struts from the lugs under the saddle and sterring boss to some ponts such as the over body 'hoop' to achieve a fixing that is proof against rotation of the whole to or away from the bike. Put another way I fear that if all fixings were made to the main 'U' chassis the turning moment would be too great to prevent rotation (if you get my drift).

I acknowlege that the bike needs to lean out from the side car (when seen on a level surface) and that there also needs to be a degree of 'tow in' in addition to the side car axle being forward of the m/cycle rear wheel.

When i first rode my bike with a chair (all those years ago) it was interesting, especially when I cruisied a low speed towards a lamp post which would have ended up between the bike and the chair had I not ground to a halt on time!! On this subject it is a long standing joke in the family of how my uncle having bought a combination ended up over the sea wall at Stokes Bay (Gosport) on his way home!!

If anyone has any parctical experience on fixing a Steib in particular it would be appreciated. Any other input of course, as well.

Keith

[john.nash]

I know you steib boys look down upon us mere watsonian owners .. but here are the fittings on mine .. useful pics at this moment as it's being built.
bike is 54 swingarm vh500.
Frame has loop under tank, loop under heel of left foot, loop where top of battery box attaches and you use a screw in eyebolt in the bottom front engine mount.

Cost so far, two tin of paint, 8 nuts and bolts, some wiring and engine work in exchange for the spray on the sidecar body, £5 for a front running light from John Mitchell and £10 for a wipac rear.
Hours so far ... countless. I had to strip everything with a wire wheel in a grinder and rebuild from scratch.

[brenton.roy]

And I guess what is obvious is that there isn't much more grunt in this setup (or as much?) than those dirty big clamps Steib use. An engineer would no doubt be able to do the sums for the surface area - the stieb rail looks to be 50mm or so in diameter, so the clamps would have a large area to spread the forces relative to the tubes. And it's twist, not bending. Without the body on the Watsonian, you get a clear picture of how close what passes for triangulation is to the bike - hence the weld in the centre tube? The forces there must be quite large.
I rode speedway and bitumen sidecars for a while and both had very strong triangulation from a centre point under the seat to the sidecar axle - not too practical for a road going bike though.
One way to improve the strength of a traditioinal chassis, without looking too out of character, is to use a large(r) diameter tube as close as you can in the line from the frame to the rear axle. Not too big or too strong though. You want some flex or the bike frame will bend or break instead.

[john.nash]

- hence the weld in the centre tube?

The chassis has a towbar, hence the double tubes at the rear and the extra weld.
It's very well done and opinion is divided, here, as to whether it was a factory mod or not.

1.5" tube.

Triangulation isn't that good, unfortunately. Even with the pile of fittings I had to choose from.

The Ural (parked behind in the picture), on the other hand, is designed for it's sidecar and it's a work of simple genius.
Easy on, easy off, easy setup and perfect angles.

[Keith.owen]

Hi John,
No I don't look down on Watsonian or anything else to that matter!! Thanks everso for the pics.

Looking at the set up it looks very fragile not because it's likely to come off, but there is a potentially a large turning moment at the point where the spars fronm the upper fixing points meet the chassis. Clearly it works though!!!

Yeras ago when I had an "A" frame chassis the swan necks from the top fixing points on the bike ran under the side car boat (we used to call them chairs) to the centre of the chassis so any turning moment was converted into an extension / compression of the swan necks. Good really........my mate who had a side car fxed to a '49 speed twin used to take laft handers and swing the chair up in the air so as to clear the pavement (to impress his passengers). Needless to say not in front of the police!!

Keith