White & Poppe is coming up for auction

[Dave.Barkshire]

Blimey, a single speed White & Poppe is coming up for auction.

https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot ... 8&pn=1&g=1

[Roger Gwynn]

This was auctioned in November 2023 but failed to sell. The basic machine is no earlier than 1913 but with some earlier features, the fixed gearing may not be original and re-made petrol tank is not the right shape.

[Mick D]

Hi

I have to wonder just how much of this bike, and others like it, are original - 'Trigger's broom' !!!

Regards Mick

[tony.barnett]

This was auctioned in November 2023 but failed to sell. The basic machine is no earlier than 1913 but with some earlier features, the fixed gearing may not be original and re-made petrol tank is not the right shape.

Looking at the frame and engine numbers (I have these from the earlier sale I think) - they suggest 1911. The dropped top tube suggests no earlier. There isn't an easy start lever either, suggesting an early engine (and it'll be a bag of fun to start...nice belt slip once you drop the valve lifter).

As Mick says, it might be Triggers broom, might not. Not much is `original' once its been restored. Caveat emptor. Nice early reg number though.

[Roger Gwynn]

After checking earlier research I have realised that there are 5 types of 'dropped' frames, not 4 as I previously thought. Every time I look at these machines I spot something new.
Small drop 1912 TT models with a small gap between wheel and frame, tubes not in line,
medium drop 1913-14 TT with a larger gap and tubes almost in line
Large drop 1913-24 std models and TT from 1915, belt drive, not gearbox slightly larger gap and tubes in line
XL drop 1914-24 all gearbox models, very large gap, tubes in line.

I now think that the frame is a 1913-14 TT model. Note the rubber button footboards in the before picture with the lip on 3 sides from 1912-13 but not used on TT models, there is also a gearbox shown that obviously does not belong with this frame or the footrests. The engine number is the lowest in the register and the cable operated decompressor would indicate a 1911 engine.

[tony.barnett]

A TT Model would have a detachable frame tube under the petrol tank. And indeed, looking closer, the tank would be mounted off this detachable section, not from the top tube like on this bike. My 13 TT Model has a cable decompressor as well as a foot pedal decompressor.

[Roger Gwynn]

The QD tank was listed as an option for all models in 1912 and as std for all in 1913 in the catalogues. In 1913 all the models are listed as having a patented pedal operated decompressor for easy starting so I assumed that before that a cable was used. I didn't know that any engines had foot and cable decompressors. It can be difficult knowing just which features were used or even if they made it past the catalogue dreaming stage. I am lacking a copy of the 1911 catalogue should anyone have one....

[Dave.Barkshire]

Hi Roger, I've uploaded the 1911 brochure to a web page which you should be able to access with this link.

(If your web client changes the HTTP to HTTPS then it will not be accessible and you'll need to change it to HTTP)

http://barkshire.co.uk/misc/Ariel1911.pdf

[Roger Gwynn]

Hi Dave, that is terrific, thanks a lot. Will probably have to revise my research again!