Black Ariel sump oil

[brenton.roy]

Can someone with a total loss OHV tell me how much oil would usually drain out when the sump plug is removed?
I'm interested in whether this varies from bike to bike .
I have a '27 Model C and am still very much in the learning curve.
Brenton

[adrie.degraaff]

Normaly only as much as half a thee cup drained, if you give more than 20 drops a minut it will come out everywhere.

The older ones with a pump, one pumpaction every 20 km.

[brenton.roy]

Thank you Adrie.
I had a problem with the oil line from the tank to the motor. It had work hardened and cracked a little - came apart in my hands when I undid it from the tank.
I would never have seen it otherwise as it was right around the base of the nut.
I think it delivered oil better at low revs than when I went faster - as it appeared to be dripping OK at idle. It's harder to watch in traffic...
Around 50ml came out after a "quick" ride - maybe 85 kph.
I think I'm pretty lucky that everything is still OK.

I've repaired the pipe and had the oil dripping faster today - and yes, it certainly came out of the motor!
Would revving more cause it to pump the oil out?
Should there be a ball bearing or something similar in the breather?

[adrie.degraaff]

If I go faster the dripping is at the same speed but the drops are suckt in to the pipe like as if the oil was magnetic, if standing for a while the glas must fill up so you know the vacuüm is good and there is fres oil for the cold start.
Don't know about the ball as I didn't restore it my self, just took the foults out, but most motorcycles after 1900 have a ball and spring to have a vacuüm in the crankcase to keep the oil in.

[brenton.roy]

I would be really grateful if any '26 or '27 owners could take a look at how their primary (drive) side breather is set up.
According to the parts book (thanks Paul), the breather body - part # S21/1, may include part # S9/2 - a 1/4" ball.
The bearing isn't shown in the assembly picture in the book, but it does fit nicely in the breather body and clacks around like it should be there.

There may be other "versions" of this breather i.e. a crimped pipe?

I am planning to take the bike on a long ride (1900km each way) in August. I'm hoping that all of my problem was the cracked pipe, but am concerned about the consequences of pumping the oil out of the cases over a longer day's ride.

Thanks in advance,
Brenton

[huw.parsons]

Hi Brenton
I had similar problems getting my 1912 W&P Ariel to oil properly.
I had to make up a ball bearing breather to get the engine to suck oil in.
it now likes 20 drops per minute or a little less if going gently.
I'm always slightly surprised how little dirty oil comes out when draining the cases , just a
half teacup full. If I up the 20 drops per minute though the cases soon fill up and the bike
smokes like a knackered moped and leaks oil everywhere, especially on the drive belt!
I think the case volume is probably smaller on the W&P engine but I reckon it's similar.
I'm sure you should have a 'non- return' ball bearing breather.

cheers

Huw

[brenton.roy]

Thanks Huw,
I didn't want to say how much like treacle the oil was. You'd think it would be clean considering the short time it's there..!
After yesterday's ride, I drained a 1/2 cup or so - which was obviously better, but it did leak out a lot more along the way.

I don't have the oil continuing to drip after the engine has stopped. This may well be due to the cracked pipe - or the ball.
I guess I'll find out.

[nevhunter]

These motors don't operate the same as proper dry sump motors where a larger amount of oil is circulated. The ariel pumps around 26 are a mystery to me but I would not alter it as most of those systems work well if they are set up OK.
I have run total loss oil systems in most of my bikes over the years. NEVER seized one up .
I set the pump up initially to give excess oil (The alternative is bad) and provided there are no excess engine leaks about 1/2 pint per 100 miles is usually adequate.
I don't run oil rings, as they didn't then . There is a lot of friction in oil rings and the oil level in the sump will keep on rising. While this might seem like a good idea it eventually causes heat from flywheel drag . Normally if the engine is getting the right amount of oil there will be some slight smoke after running down a long hill, as the closed throttle drags oil up the bores. It's actually recomended to close the throttle occasionally to do this on long flat runs.
The amount you drain from the sump varies with engine characteristics. ( Clearance from the flywheel to crankcase etc)
The oil may get black the main reason being rich mixture. You can look after the bike well with total loss systems , by draining it after a longish run.(Straight away, when the muck is suspended) and replenish the case before starting to the level (at least) where it would have been when you drained it. If you have a hand pump this is easy, otherwise some other way has to be found to get the oil there..
JAP motors have long had a system of flap valves in the crankcase which circulates the oil around the engine internals quite well. These engines usually don't drain a large quantity of oil, but that can be normal for them. In the end I use consumption of oil for a given distance as the criteria. If you have a sidecar on or ride faster up the amount delivered. A small amount of two-stroke oil in the fuel helps too..Nev