Identify early frame

[Roger Gwynn]

A chap has sent me a picture of a frame that he has acquired from Australia and given the frame number 51 341. It has all the appearance of a 1904-07 frame except for the rather small gap between the tank tubes or where they would be... The bent front tube is earlier than 1910 but the tank tube gap is later than 1909. The rear engine plate/bracket is compatible with 1904-09. What members think?

[adrie.degraaff]

That's an easy one; it's a heavy Fleet of january 1905 as the first of the frame number says.
It has square rough engine castings so it could have a Fleet (Ariel) rearcam or Minerva engine.

I am supprised that they still made a Fleet in 1905 as the model was already ended but they had to sell old stock.

The top tube is rotted through becouse there was a cork in the middle to saporate the brass-flued powder mix for brasing, (first the headstock in the fire and than the seat tube), after that the damp got stuck at the cork.

The frame is lowered in 1910-191? to make it more modern.

I still have the mouldings to make a tank but not the go to do it, and a NOS front forks.

So you need to find an engine, two westwood 26x2 wiretire rims of 45mm wide and make the frame higher.
Or sell it to Vincent who needs it low as it is now.

[Roger Gwynn]

Thank you Adrie, I knew I could rely on you.

[adrie.degraaff]

I have strong indications that atleast the last 3 monts of the year 1904 where stamped 51xxx becouse it's always 5 digids and in these months it would be 6.
The last 3 numbers where just counting on and a true indication of numbers made.
I don't have my numbers list anymore so we could see where it is line, you have to ask Rein Heerkens.

No one want to buy a 1905 motorcycle with the 1904 frame.

[Roger Gwynn]

Even back then the model year started the previous autumn. I have records of the numbers of 8 bikes that are 5 digits long that all fit your theory. In fact all the bikes between 1903 and 1909 that I have numbers for fit the theory. I think most of them you have owned at one time. I had wondered what might happen when the month had 2 digits.

[Karlwood]

Thank you Adie for your help in identifying the frame. I would be interested in any parts you may have to build the bike. Can you tell me what minerva engine it would have had
Cheers
Karl Wood

[adrie.degraaff]

2-3/4 HP Minerva or the same HP if it's Fleet-Ariel rearcam.

[adrie.degraaff]

The Minerva engines have a wider crankcase so theire hanging in clamps so you need to know the engine mounting distance wich don't have as i sold all frames.
I can try to find parts for you but that would be better through PM and would be good to know where you are in the world.

[Vincent.vanGinneke]

something like this ?

[adrie.degraaff]

That's an Ariel 2-3/4 HP tricycle engine, i think 1900-1901.
What are the numbers?