Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

General talk about the W/NG
jim.haydock
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:27 am
Contact:

Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by jim.haydock »

I'm in the process of restoring a W/NG that I bought in a dilapidated state a year or two ago. I started restoring in March 2020 (along with most everyone else) and I've been working my way through the various parts and assemblies. I've now got to the back mudguard which was in a bit of a state, but recoverable with a fair bit of plating and brasing. The rear, lift up portion had what I took to be a previous patched repair but to my surprise and delight it turned out to be a brass plate with chassis contract number etc.. (see attached photo).

John Duckworth put me onto the Articles and Tech Info page on Drags website and the Known W/NG War Contracts Information table, but it left me a little confused. My frame number is XG13006 and engine number BH3976. Looking these numbers up in the table, the relevant Demand and Contract Date is 18/9/40 D and 7/12/40 C, Contract Number C 8,722 but as you can see from the photo the Chassis Contract No. is C 13871 which is a 14/3/42 D , 12/3/42 C in the table.

Any thoughts?

Jim Haydock
Lancs Branch
Attachments
DSC_0234.JPG
User avatar
Roger Gwynn
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 11:34 am
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by Roger Gwynn »

The only conclusion is that your mudguard is not the original for the bike. The contract number on the mudguard covers engines 21,501 to 25,000 and frames bewteen 31,751 and 35,250 despatched between 29/10/42 and 5/4/43 but your engine is from C 8,722 despatched between 2/11/40 and 4/3/41. Typically for a W/NG the engine and frame don't match but usually they have an engine from the same contract as the workshops did a sort of exchange service. However your frame is from contract C 8,302 despatched between 25/6/40 and 7/10/40 the original engine was BH 2491 and the original frame was XG 14,526. Most contracts were supplied with spare engies and frames.

I had forgotten that the W/NG contract info was on the Draganfly website, I must update it as I have done some more research since that was written.
Roger Gwynn, Membership Secretary, curator of the Machine Register and the works drawings. Director of Draganfly Motorcycles, Craven Equipment and Supreme Motorcycles mostly retired.
User avatar
alan.moore
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:29 pm
Location: Leicestershire UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by alan.moore »

Roger Gwynn wrote: I had forgotten that the W/NG contract info was on the Draganfly website, I must update it as I have done some more research since that was written.
Roger
That would be really handy. For the past year I've been researching and documenting when various parts changed, or were introduced, during W/NG production using the available parts books. Where possible I'm tying them in with period photos. I know it will not be definitive but will hopefully be of interest to club members when its done. Any further info on the contracts will be useful.

Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single;1952 VHA engined project
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t
jim.haydock
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by jim.haydock »

Roger and Alan,

First off apologies for my question appearing under two different W/NG headings purely down to my ineptitude.

Thanks for your very helpful replies they all go on to provide a bit of interesting historical perspective. Alan raised a question about the inside fixings and I've attached a photo. They look original to my eye, even down to the ends of the screws being slotted to enable them to be prized apart to lock them in place.

The bike was in what appeared to be original condition with a coat of black paint over the army oilve green that seemed to have been daubed on and was evident on the chain and crankcases as well as the frame and tinware. The bike looked very much like Lew Wallworks W/NG, same colour and general appearance. Steve, who sold it to me said he'd got it from a hill farmer in the Stockport area, who'd bought it after the war from a bike shop selling army surplus. I've no proof of this but equally no reason to disbelieve it. I had hopes of being able to preserve the original finish but some parts we so badly corroded that the only remedy was to effect a repair and re-paint to protect in the future. The previous owner had also started to restore the petrol tank and it came to me with a coat of red primer, though fortunately he'd preserved a template for the forces registration number, photo also attached.

I think that the explanation that you both offered is most likely to be correct and that the rear mudguard or maybe just the lift up portion, has been replaced at some point with a 1942 item rather than the plate itself having been substituted. Thanks again guys it's nice to know that there is such a wealth of knowledge available to club members on the history of our chosen mounts.

Jim Haydock
Attachments
DSC_0260.JPG
DSC_0261.JPG
User avatar
alan.moore
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:29 pm
Location: Leicestershire UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by alan.moore »

Jim
I agree with you those plate attachment screws do look original ... another piece of knowledge gained.

FYI Re that tank serial number C4812707 ...looking at the records that number falls within contract C13871...so the same as that shown on your mudguard plate.

Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single;1952 VHA engined project
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t
User avatar
Roger Gwynn
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 11:34 am
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by Roger Gwynn »

Alan, I have already produced an Excel spreadsheet with all the specs from all the contracts, except for a few where I don't have any info. If you like I can send you a copy if you promise to let me know of any errors or omissions. I have also written a chapter on the W/Ng for 'The book' that has not been published or even written in full, that you are also welcome to have a copy of.
Roger Gwynn, Membership Secretary, curator of the Machine Register and the works drawings. Director of Draganfly Motorcycles, Craven Equipment and Supreme Motorcycles mostly retired.
User avatar
alan.moore
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:29 pm
Location: Leicestershire UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by alan.moore »

Roger Gwynn wrote:Alan, I have already produced an Excel spreadsheet with all the specs from all the contracts, except for a few where I don't have any info. If you like I can send you a copy if you promise to let me know of any errors or omissions. I have also written a chapter on the W/Ng for 'The book' that has not been published or even written in full, that you are also welcome to have a copy of.
Roger
Have sent you a PM

Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single;1952 VHA engined project
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t
wade.edwards
Holder of a Silver Anorak
Holder of a Silver Anorak
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:48 am
Location: British Columbia
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by wade.edwards »

The screws with square, threaded brass nuts, is a revelation. The reproduction plates come with brass rivets which may or may not be correct for later contracts. Please add this question to the long list of changes. :roll:
Can’t tell from picture; are the screw ends hammered against the nuts to prevent loosening?
jim.haydock
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by jim.haydock »

Wade,

I've attached another photo with the best shot that I can get of the screws and square nuts. You can see that the ends of the screw thread are slotted and the one on the right in particular seems to have been spread open to lock the nut in place. There is no evidence of them being hammered over and I think that the nuts were secured by spreading the slot with a screwdriver or similar item.

Alan,

The tank serial number falling within contract C 13871 is very interesting but I'm not sure where that leaves us with respect to the engine and frame numbers falling outside of that contract unless both the tank and mudguard were replaced during army service or possibly on disposal to remedy defects which arose during service.

Thanks once again for your efforts chaps and I'll gladly provide any further information that might assist the knowledge pool.

Jim Haydock
Attachments
DSC_0262.JPG
User avatar
alan.moore
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Holder of a Golden Anorak
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:29 pm
Location: Leicestershire UK
Contact:

Re: Frame, Engine and Contract Numbers

Post by alan.moore »

Jim
If the machine was originally purchased from a bike shop selling off XWD machines it is possible that they made up complete machines from parts. I think its fair to accept that, even in service, machines were updated with later parts when they went to the REME workshops for service or repair.

A useful reference book is" British Forces Motorcycles 1925-1945 by Chris Orchard, Steve Madden (Hardback, 2017)". It has lots of info on the W/NG and a list of contract details at the rear. Plenty on sale on Ebay for less than £20. (I think the 2017 version is the latest edition).

There are also 100 images of W/NG's on the club website here: http://www.arielownersmcc.com/members ... p?album=32

Can you post some pics of the bike from both sides, maybe some further info can be given on dating of the various parts fitted.

Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single;1952 VHA engined project
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests